Building an Intentional Practice with Robyn Scherr & Kate Mackinnon |

Business and Marketing for Massage and Bodywork Therapists

Episode 13.

ROBYN SCHERR:  Anything I find that other people tell us is solid… for sure a true thing… always happens… or when someone tells us what we HAVE to do around business, it's not that it might not be so, but generally it isn't so. Much more important is how we're setting our intention and how we're carrying it through.

MINDY TOTTEN: Welcome to Do It With Intention, the podcast for massage and bodywork therapists. I'm your host, Mindy Totten, a mentor and coach for bodyworkers who want to turn their passion for the work they do into successful businesses that they love -- all without burning out or selling. 

For the last 15 plus years, I've created a successful six-figure Craniosacral Therapy practice in a small city in coastal North Carolina. Over those years, I've met so many skilled, big-hearted therapists who are struggling to make their bodywork businesses work for them. Not because they weren't terrific therapists, but because they didn't know how to make the business side of their practices work. 

It became my mission to help other massage and bodywork therapists build practices that support not only their soul, but also their bottom line.

On the Do It With Intention podcast, we'll dive deep into what it takes to build and to sustain a profitable massage or bodywork business. We'll have honest conversations about what really works and what doesn't as you create the ideal practice for you. 

After all, you do great work in the world and you deserve to make a great living doing it. But you've got to be intentional about it not only in your modality but in your business too. That's how body workers Do It With Intention.

Before we jump into today's episode, here's a quick shout out to our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by my upcoming free online event: the Step Up and Fill Your Practice Challenge.

If you've been wondering how to be a true pro and CEO of your business so that you can serve more people and make a great living doing it, you'll want to join us for this 100% free five-day challenge.

Instead of wasting a ton of time and money trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and figure this all out on your own, you get free guidance and support as you take your massage or bodywork business to the next level.

You'll learn the very next steps that you need no matter where you are in your business.

Head over to the show notes for this episode at MindyTotten.com/podcast, where you can sign up for the challenge and share it with your friends and colleagues.

We begin on Monday, January 13th and we'd love to have you join us. It's time to change your passion for the work that you do into a successful business that you love. So sign up now for the Step Up and Fill Your Practice Challenge, and let's get this thing started!

And now onto the episode!

MINDY: Hey, Hey there and welcome Kate McKinnon and Robin Scherr to the Do It With Intention podcast!

KATE MACKINNON: Thank you.

ROBYN: Thanks so much Mindy.

MINDY: I'm really, really excited to talk to both of you today because we are going to talk about one of my favorite topics ever, which is how to create an intentional practice.

I think that as bodyworkers, we're intentional about so many things — about our modalities, about the people we work with. And then we're not really intentional about our practices. We just sort of think that the business side is going to somehow magically fall into place. So I can't wait to really dive in with both of you. But before we do, I would love if you would share with our listeners a little bit about who you are and how you got started in this business. So who would like to start?

KATE: I'll start. My name's Kate McKinnon, and I started out my training in physical therapy or physiotherapy as it’s called in England, and in Edinburgh. I ended up specializing working with children with disabilities.

And it was whilst I was working with those children that I heard about CranioSacral Therapy — it’s a little more common in the UK and certainly for children. And so I was curious but I'd say very skeptical about what it was. And it took a friend of mine receiving CST for some tooth pain that was really transformative, that really peaked my curiosity more.

And then I emigrated to the United States and decided to check it out more. So as I was jumping through all the hoops to be a physical therapist in California, I decided to go get a CranioSacral Therapy session and really found it useful and very different to anything else that I've ever experienced.

So I decided to take a class in it, and it was really at the point once I took that first CranioSacral class that I really knew that I wanted to know this as deeply as possible. I really wanted to fully explore what were the possibilities of CranioSacral Therapy and what would that bring to me as, as a therapist.

And then I just set up my practice in 2004 and did part time CST and part time working with children with disabilities. But I was able to bring that skillset to the children too. And once I had my twins, I solely had my CST type practice.

MINDY: Gotcha. So did you have your own practice right from the beginning, over in the UK?

KATE: So it's really only when I moved to the United States, that things shifted.

MINDY: And how about you, Robin? How did you get started in this CST world?

ROBYN: I came to bodywork as a client. I come from a family that is not particularly body-aware, you know, everything from the head up, please. Everything driven from the brain, and I was an English major in college. Then I became a health educator. I really enjoy telling other people what to do around their health! Um, you know, funny enough wasn't particularly effective, but that was the model that I was taught, and I was very interested in the body from an educational point of view and behavioral point of view.

And then I got injured and I saw the doctors, I saw a physical therapist. The person who helped me was a massage therapist and she said to me at one point, you know, if you're looking to change what you're up to, you know, I could mentor you; you could be pretty good at this.

And that didn't completely work out, but it did set me on a path of going to massage school. So I was working, doing some health education and also working at a consulting firm, helping engineers and statisticians communicate in writing. That's, that's where I was headed. And then as I went to massage school, I slowly began to build a practice and slowly left my job at the consulting firm in about six months. You know, having had a practice, I was able to transition to full time bodywork practice.

MINDY: And then how did the two of you start collaborating?

KATE: Well we met in a multi-hands group where we would gather together as CranioSacral Therapists and work on each other and multi-hands format. And so this group met for a year or so, so we knew each other through that. And then, I was asked to write a book about CranioSacral Therapy and share that with our group. And Robin was like an angel walked up to me and said, “You know, I have some skills in editing. Could I help?”

MINDY: And you said, “Yes, you may!”

KATE: Yes. And from that point, Oh, we really discovered that we work very well together. We have very complimentary skills. And so we survived that project together. And then we've just really continued on with lots of different expressions and projects.

And the thing that I value so much about our collaboration is that while we were working on the book, we also decided that because we have such complementary skills, we would begin to work together seeing clients, multi hands, trading off months at each of our offices, and that is a learning that I haven't gotten anywhere else.

It's something that can't be gotten in a classroom environment. We've got real clients on our tables and showing up and having to be able to communicate with each other about what we're noticing as a session progresses. And the proof is in the fact that we've been able to keep this going now for seven years. Every month. Then taking one month off in the summer with a full roster of clients.

ROBYN: So we're developing not only our hands-on skills, but also developing the business skills to make something available that is twice the price of a single session. But also much, much more than two sessions worth of work. Right.

MINDY: That’s synergy, right? The sum of the parts is worth more than the whole. That sounds terrific. This is a perfect segue into this idea of an intentional practice because what you're talking about right now, Robyn, is okay, we did this thing that is not typically done and we created our own thing. Was that part of your intention?

ROBYN: Well, here's the thing, right? Folks will tell you how your practice is going to be, how it needs to be. The only ways things will work a little bit like how health education can be. Right? Like clients will never pay for a multi hands session if you both charge your full rate, or clients just won't show up for that if it's only once a month and if it can take them six or seven months to get in and get a session, you know, folks just won't wait for that.

Well, anything I find that other people tell us is solid for sure. A true thing, always happens. Or when someone tells us what we have to do around business, it's not that it might not be so, but generally it isn't so much more important about how we're setting our intention and how we're carrying it through it.

It’s one thing to have an idea and want to make it happen, it's another to saying, this is what we want to make happen and what are the steps we need to get there?

So we were pretty intentional with it and we decided that it wasn't going to be at a cost to us, you know, financial or energy-wise either. And we did create it, we decided, okay, it's once a month, it's the first Wednesday of every month and we're going to change offices. So we put a lot of structure and what we call in our book our business container.

KATE: So we created the container and the container was, this is a format the availabilities can be accessed on our websites. We made all of that available and it was our intention that we would serve our clients, but we were also going to, it was going to serve as to, there was going to be a way in which we benefit to us in our own clinical practice too.

MINDY: You all have said just so many things right there that I'm like, okay everybody hit pause, go back 60 seconds, because I want you to listen again! Robin, when you said — I think this is so key, particularly for massage and bodywork therapists — that you set your intention and you're very clear about that you have a clear vision and then you take the steps to make that vision happen rather than this idea that I think sometimes is in this complimentary care world of I'm just going to set an intention and it will magically happen.

I call it taking baby steps — have that clear vision and then every day take some sort of baby step in that direction. And then I also love Kate, what you were saying about being of service to other people having a clear intention for helping other people being of service to them.

And there's nothing wrong with — as a matter of fact, it's really great to have — a clear intention for yourself as well. Like I don't have to be burned out or strung out or completely stressed and sick because I'm being of service to so many people that I'm actually not taking care of myself personally.

But also on the business side, and you all call it, I think in your book, and we going to talk more about your book in a second, but for those of you listening: Elements of a Successful Therapeutic Business, which came out a couple of months ago and it's really a wonderful read, but in your book you talk about the business container and I call it creating a safe container for your business. So it's basically the same thing. And again, therapeutically, we almost do that second nature.

We create the container so that people can do the healing work that they need to do. But I love when you talk about creating, like I said, I say business a safe container and you're calling it a business container. Same thing for your business. In this case, for this particular offering that you're talking about, it's not just, “Oh, we might think about doing some multiple hands work. Is anyone interested? Oh, nobody's interested…

You set it up. Here's what it looks like. Here's how it's laid out. And the ironic thing is that people feel safer then when you're clear with your boundaries and they're really easy for people to see, they feel safer and are drawn in. Would you, do you guys agree or, I mean, our listeners can hear you, but I see you guys shaking your head up and down.

ROBYN: Preach it sister! We're nodding enthusiastically. It's true in all sorts of situations. So I'm thinking back, the night before last I walked into a makeup store that was completely overwhelming, disorganized. I didn't know where anything was. I was utterly dependent on someone else's help, couldn't get the help, didn't know where people were standing. I would say that that particular store does not have a great business container. (Unless their, their aim is to confuse people and have them wander around, you know, looking, looking for things!)

What would work better for me is having things that are clearly marked out, knowing where I'm headed, and that's what we tried to do with our practice. Our fees are not mysterious to people. Our hours are not mysterious. The days we work — that's not mysterious. The ways that we set up an appointment, we have our rituals around that if you want to put it that way. Or we simply have procedures. Our clients know what's expected of them. And it's very clear the contract between us.

KATE: It's very grounded and solid, that is, like a magnet. So that rule, it kind of draws people in and they feel safe, like you were describing. There has to be that sense of safety. It does not mean there isn't room for flexibility.

MINDY: Yeah, it can evolve, right? It's not just sort of out there and nobody knows (in your example, Robin) where to go to get the makeup because it's crazy that way.

I would love our listeners to hear what you all think about a sliding scale.

ROBYN: I don't offer one. Why in the world would I ask my client to take responsibility for deciding how much a session is?

MINDY: Here’s what I’ve heard bodyworkers say: “Because Robin, they might not be able to afford me. And so it's the nice thing to do.”

ROBYN: Ah, yeah. I would argue it is not nice. It puts pressure, it puts responsibility on the client that should not be the client’s. That doesn't mean that all of my clients can afford my full rate. I'm always open to discussing what would work for my clients, and I've worked out and I know Kate's worked out because she does the numbers and actually lays it out what we each need to charge to have the life we want to have, pay our bills, to pay our education, to be able to go to the makeup store when we want to the makeup store and if we can't find things.

MINDY: And I feel with the sliding scale, I'm exactly the same. I don't offer one. I feel exactly what you were saying and there's another piece of it, too. Going back to that feeling of not being safe, like the person doesn't know what's expected, what the fee is going to be. And there's so much stuff, so much energy involved with money and finances and all of that stuff, and you're placing that whole thing on the client who's really coming to see you to get support.

KATE: It can get so messy. We all have our money stories, I have mine, my client has his, and you know, it's my responsibility to really get clear on what are my money stories and money issues and work through those so that it doesn't muddy the waters of our therapeutic relationship and connection.

So we don't want to be wading through all of that. I mean what they think is poverty may not be what I think is policy. So I think it's just, it's such a key area to get clarity on.

MINDY: I agree. I had a situation right when I first opened my doors — somebody called and it was an older woman and she said, you know, I'm on a fixed budget, is there any way that you can offer me a discount? I thought, I need this work. And of course I was new and I was like, Oh this poor woman. And so I didn't know what to do exactly, but I discounted the rates.

And then she pulled up. I work out of my home, I have an office here attached to my home. So I have a window and she pulled into the driveway in a late model Mercedes. And I really had a hard time staying neutral during that session because I felt like I had been taken advantage of. It was a good lesson, a good learning experience.

But I think back to that often — we have NO idea what other people's money stuff is. We just have no idea at all. So to set that clear rate to be consistent. And like you said, Robyn, you can be open to the discussion if you'd like to be, but not “Oh, you know, pay whatever you want.”

ROBYN: It's just messy like you said, and can be overwhelming as well. And you said something that stuck in my ear — “Oh, this poor woman.” What kind of a therapeutic container does that begin to set up?

MINDY: Yes! Right. So having clear business boundaries allows us to have a clearer therapeutic container. AND be more effective in our work. And then of course our clients are going to get better results.

Along those same lines, let's face it, people who are massage and bodywork therapists, in general, are huge hearted people who get into this work to be of service and to help other people. I talked to a lot of therapists who say, “I want to be supportive in my community. And so once a month I'm going to do a free day at whatever.” And I advise against that.

I talk about separating business from community service. So for example, for me, I'm on the boards of some nonprofits. I work with lots of different types of organizations, a co-op in town, volunteering my time. And that to me is my community service. I would love to hear what you guys have to say about it.

KATE: So, yeah, we're pretty much along the same lines. And personally for me, you know, because I tend to be overly empathetic, I don't do a lot of those things because I would be all over the place. So for me, having that clarity between this is my therapy business, what I do with my volunteer time, I choose to make outside of my business for the most part. Having that delineation is helpful to me. It helps me keep those boundaries in place because I know myself. We talk a lot about in the book about, really, you know, you've got to figure yourself out and know where you need to bring in support and what's playing to our strengths and avoid the weaker areas that we have.

ROBYN: And you know, the other thing we talk about quite a bit is like really — look, can you afford to do that? Beause if you can't afford to do that, you're not in business anymore, you're more running a charity, an expensive hobby, right? So I think you have to get really, brutally honest with ourselves and say, “Can I afford to donate this time and resources, am I able to pay my bills if I commit to doing once a month of whatever?”

Another thing that many therapists will do seems big hearted, but also in the back of their minds, they're thinking, if I give away these sessions, this will bring clients in through my door.

Maybe. But I have not seen that very much and if that works for someone, fantastic. But it hasn't worked for anyone I know. The sessions we give away, boy, make them gifts, really make them gifts, and expect nothing in return. Make it pure service. Another reason to make it pure service so that we don't get burned out. If I take my work time to give my expertise away.

KATE: Right? And then the exchange is not equal and I end up more exhausted at the end of the day. So yeah, like the two of you, I like to keep my volunteer time for things that I'm truly interested in and passionate about that are not my work.

MINDY: Thank you for validating and out loud. I've said this for years!

So let's talk a little bit about your book Elements of a Successful Therapeutic Business. Why did you all decide to write a book together now about business?

KATE: Well it started out, you know, because of us getting together and having this monthly multi-hands work. And one of the projects that spun off from that was just sitting down and talking about our businesses, and how many conversations we've had with our colleagues around struggles essentially around that.

And just a sense of curiosity — why does it work for us and not for others when we know the skill sets are at least equivalent or they're beyond those in terms of hands-on skillset. So we decided to put that into the format of an online class for our colleagues, and taught that a number of times It was really well received and we found we're hearing the same things repeatedly and it was actually somebody who took part in the class said to us, why don't you write a book on it?

ROBYN: And we realized that at that time our heart was not no longer in teaching live and running that class online. So writing the book became a way to engage with the materials still.

MINDY: How can people, if they are interested in finding your book or if they're interested in finding out more about you and your multiple-hand sessions or about working with you, how can people get in touch?

ROBYN: We are easy to find. The book is found everywhere that books are sold. So if you're looking online, you know the usual suspects and them and Powells and you can request it from your local book seller, which we highly recommend. We have our own individual websites. That would be Kmackinnon.com. That's the letter K M a C K I N N O n.com.

And I'm at Livinginthebody.net and then together we have created a platform that the book is on. And our other classes and projects live called Touchmatters.net

MINDY: We'll include all of those links in the show notes so that you can easily access them.

Kate and Robyn, it has been so much fun talking with you today. I appreciate you so much coming on to Do It With Intention, and I look forward to your continued success and seeing what you all produce next.

ROBYN AND KATE: Thank you so much Mindy for having us. It's been a joy.

MINDY: Thanks for coming on this journey with me today. I know what it takes to make time for something like this in your busy day and I so appreciate that you tuned in and listened all the way to the end. 

We've got all the links from today's episode in the show notes that you can find over at MindyTotten.com/podcast.

If you really enjoyed today's conversation, I'd love to send you a special sticker to remind you that Bodywork Therapists Do It With Intention. All you have to do is take a moment to leave a review on Apple podcasts. 

Once you do, just send a quick email with a screenshot of your review to hello@mindytotten.com.

Be sure to include your best mailing address and I'll get this fun sticker out to Pronto.

If you're loving the show, make sure you subscribe so that you can download each episode as soon as it comes out.

Okay, that's it for today. It's my pleasure and my privilege to be with you on this journey. I'll see you next week, same place, same time. Until then, get out there and Do It With Intention.